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Sergorn a écrit :Après comme dit plus haut Lucas nous a dis et redit que la Postlogie était l'histoire des petits-enfants d'Anakin (c'est même d'ailleurs encore dit dans ce bouquin) donc y a quelques chose qui colle pas du tout dans ce "pitch".

-Sergorn

Spoiler :   Afficher

Darth Maul was in it thx to his TCW resurrection and his apprentice was Darth Talon lifted from the comics.

But before people scream... the way and with detail the book presents it, it does make sense!

Inspiration was among others post-Iraq war rebuilding and and people not letting go starting their own nation and making trouble, like ISIS.

PT was the Father, OT, the son, ST would focus on the Daughter and Grandchildren both, hence Leia and offspring.

Prominent criminal elements like Hutts and gangsters feature into the story.

Set few years after ROTJ with the first movie already!

Luke searching for Forcesensitives to train, be it little kids or survivors of the former wars.

When it comes to the Chosen One... it's Leia or rather ended up being her. She is the hope and the one rebuilding and reuniting where others in her family were more destroying the old and sickened parts that ruined the past. Luke too rebuilds, but Leia is more the rebuilder than him.

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The Criminal stuff is there, but given the closer setting to ROTJ it will come in the currently unfolding post ROTJ expanded universe especially Mando I think and likewise offshoot series.

If you combine what Archives tells of Lucas ST with the earliest concepts from Art of TFA both complement each other nicely.

Maul's role certainly became part Snoke, while Talons also became part of Snoke when they removed her character and threw the rest into Kylo instead of showing his fall or seduction.

Few years post ROTJ, they said "a couple years" so your guess is as good as mine but I think Mando shows timeline placement is it.

About 10 seems to fit plus/minus a few years.

Spoiler :   Afficher

The following is a quote by George Lucas:
"There's something like 100.000 times more Whills than there are midi-chlorians and there's about 10.000 times more midi-chlorians than there are human cells."

George Lucas about the galaxy's past in the "Rule of Two" section:
"There was never a war between the Jedi and the Sith Lords."

Before the Republic, Sith ruled the galaxy and were many. It was like a feudal system and a lot of infighting about who is coming out on top. Ultimately they destroyed each other until only two were left standing and the stronger of the two declared himself the Master and the weaker became the Apprentice. (I get Highlander vibes!)
The Apprentice would seek to defeat the Master by learning all from him and by seeking another to aid him in toppling the Master. Likewise the Master would seek other apprentices aside his current one to thwart any teamup on the apprentices part with another. (Both breaking the Rule of Two naturally and by doing that reinforcing it as if both do it, it still is balanced out)
If the Apprentice wins, alone or with an ally, they become the new two Sith. If the Master wins, alone or with another apprentice as ally, they are the new two Sith. And thus the lineage continues. That is the Rule of Two, with built in safety against breaking it as Sith naturally would.

The Rule of Two is, if there are more than two Sith they will naturally kill each other until only two are left. Those two will seek knowledge, skills and allies and be wary of each other until the point they are ready to fight each other and continue the cycle with whoever comes out on top.

Any number of Sith would naturally be reduced to only two. And the Jedi didn't even have to fight them, as warrior monks, they are ambassadors and peacekeepers that can resort to violence to end conflicts but prefer not to if at all. The Republic grew protected by the Jedi in the wake of the Sith selfdestruction as the Rule of Two Sith were too few to control the entire galaxy yet back then and the growing Republic and Jedi joined the galaxy in peaceful negotiations settling all conflicts and leftovers of the former Sith dominion. Hence Lucas quote of no ancient Jedi/Sith War that seemed odd at first.

Add on: Well, but with the backstory of Ruin and such as a fallen Jedi, I think there were ancient wars and the Sith were born out of the Jedi as we know, but much further back than the Rule of Two backstory Lucas told here. Given Ruin and Bane are less adressed in this book than the Rule of Two itself.

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As for the Lucas ST, given its closer to ROTJ setting and thematically Luke trying to rebuild the Jedi Order:

His search for Ach-To and the original Jedi might have lead him down the rabbit hole of more and more metaphysical experiences which then would adress the nature of it all as Lucas microbiotic world and all related concepts.

This trilogies nemesis would be more familiar and require less setup than the actual ST did with its new Orders and Empires and Darksiders freeing space and time for other concepts.

Spoiler :   Afficher

George Lucas:
"Mythology is basically a psychological summation of history, taking an event in history, converting it into something that is psychologically more pleasing to an audience."

George Lucas (about TPM):
"I am prett close to finishing my second draft, which is officially called the first draft, which is in reality the 25th draft. I'm up to page 100."

This is the beginning of the much longer Midichlorian section:

Paul Duncan: "You introduced Midi-chlorians in Episode 1 as indicators of the Force."
George Lucas: "This is the cosmology. The Force is the energy, the fuel, and without it everything would fall apart. The Force is a metaphor for God, and God is essentially unknoweable. But behind it is another metaphor that, which fits so well into the movie, I couldn't resist it."

Later on, he also goes into the difference between the, as he calls it "Personal Force" and the "Cosmic Force". One's own energy created by ones own cells and body, vs. the cosmic energy our energy returns to as our body dissolves upon death.

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Initially the OT heroes had to deal with the Emperor after Vader was gone and turn a successful Rebellion after ROTJ into a successful New Republic to counter the Empire and defeat it. A story from rebellion to rival state to finally victory over the entire galaxy.
With ROTJ killing the Emperor, the story did not shift much, it just resurrected him. And instead of fighting a still active Empire, it became a strong Imperial Remnant diehards not giving up despite the decapitation of the Imperial government, awaiting the Emperors return.
With the addition of the PT to draw from, a microbiotic world layer got added to the spiritual side of the ST and the main bad could be the reborn Emperor, or other returning badguys like Maul or even Plagueis somehow to get the ST full circle. But still the OT heroes were rebuilding and facing unrepentant pockets of Imperial extremists with their terrorist states and crime on a high.
And even despite lots of changes under Disney, the ST story is the same! The Remnant became the First Order, the Emperor got reborn, the Republic struggles to rebuild and the next generation is tempted and some fall, and are redeemed.

Despite Lucas changing his mind, adding new stuff and even Disney revisions and detail scrubbing, we got the ST, THE ST in its core. The rest is beautiful cosmetics.

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Symbiosis is key. Everyone is comprised of lots of tiny lifeforms that make up your body and soul. Likewise, everyone with everyone else is just a tiny part of a universal being/soul. Be it all life that makes up Earth (the Gaia hypothesis) or even larger, the galaxy and entire universe and God herself. That is what I called in my other posts, before Archives even, a fractal universe. Macrocosm and Microcosm are very much alike. Or for religious folks, as above, so below.

The Biology:
We know from science that lots of bacteria and other micro-lifeforms are essential for our body and that lots of cells have to come and work together to create us and keep us alive.

The Spirituality:
Not just our physical body follows that principle but also our soul and spiritual makeup. We are the sum of many parts working together. If every lifeform has a soul, then every microlifeform comprising us, has its own soul. Thus if we are the sum of all the biology within us, likewise their souls kinda in summation are what we are, our soul and very being.
Likewise, each human has a soul, so all human, anima, planet, etc. souls together may inform and shape the planetary Gaia soul, or the galactic soul, or the universal soul some do call God.

This basically is the micro to macro scale of how we, life, the universe works.

The other division is between Life and Death:

Since birth the Biology transforms energy for our Life purposes and upon Death that energy is released back to the universe. Life is short, just a period of time, before and after it religions claim heaven and hell or a netherworld to be. Others claim rebirth being possible or even that a soul can choose if it wants to be reborn or not and the ideal is to reach a state free of the rebirth cycle.

Now, if there is a plane where souls come from and return to, and if rebirth or a physical life in general is optional for them, then we can surmise that not every soul chooses to be born into a body. Therefore there maybe are a lot more bodyless souls than incarnated/embodied souls. Likewise if that plane of existance as religions clame has all those that died and are there now probably outnumber the living any day.

Spoiler :   Afficher

George Lucas:
"This is the cosmology. The Force is the energy, the fuel, and without it everything would fall apart.
The Force is a metaphor for God, and God is essentially unknoweable. But behind it is another metaphor, which fits so well into the movie that i couldn't resist it.
Midi-chlorians are the equivalent of Mitochondria in living organisms and photosynthesis in plants - I simply combined them for easier consumption by the viewer. Mitochondria create the chemical energy that turns one cell into two cells.
I like to think that there is a unified reality to life and that it exists everywhere in the universe and that it controls things, but you can also control it.
That's why I split it into the Personal Force and the Cosmic Force. The Personal Force is the energy field created by our cells interacting and doing things while we are alive. When we die, we lose our persona and our energy is assimilated into the Cosmic Force.
If we have enough Midichlorians in our body, we can have a certain amount of control over our Personal Force and learn how to use it, like the Buddhist practive of being able to walk on hot coals."
(...)

"The Jedi will train you to connect to your Personal Force, and then to connect to the Cosmic Force. You don't have much power to control the Cosmic Force, but you can make use of it."
(...)

George Lucas:
"The Whills are a microscopic, single-celled lifeform like amoeba, fungi, and bacteria. There's something like 100.000 times more Whills than there are Midichlorians, and there's about 10.000 times more Midichlorians than there are human cells.
The only microscopic entities that can go into the human cells are the Midichlorians. They are born in the cells. The Midichlorians provide the energy for human cells to split and create life. The Whills are single-celled animals that feed on the Force. The more of the Force there is, the better off they are. So they have a very intense symbiotic relationship with the Midichlorians and the Midichlorians effectively work for the Whills.

It is estimated that we have 100 trillion microbes in our body and we are made up of about 90% bacteria and 10% human cells. So who is in service to hom?
I know this is the kind of thing that fans just go berserk over because they say, "We want it to be mysterious and magical", and "You're just doing science." Well, this isn't science.

This is just as mythological as anything else in Star Wars. It sounds more scientific, but it's a fiction.
It's saying there is a big symbiotic relationship to create life, and to create the Force, but if you look at all the life-forms in the universe, most of them are one-celled organisms. I think of one-celled organisms as an advanced form of life because they've because they've been able to travel through the universe. They have their own spaceships - those meteorites that we get every once in a while. They've been living on those things for thousands of years, they've been frozen, unfrozen, and can survive almost anything.
The once-celled organisms have to have a balance. You have to have good ones and bad ones otherwise it would extinguish life. And if they go out of balance, the dark side takes over."
(...)

Spoiler :   Afficher

Thephx8 a écrit : Va savoir comment ils auraient gérer le conflit irréversible avec l'UE....

Sergorn a écrit :

Thephx8 a écrit : Va savoir comment ils auraient gérer le conflit irréversible avec l'UE....

Bah de la même façon que maintenant, en rendant l'UE non canon.

Sauf qu'au lieu de gueuler contre Disney, ça gueulerait contre Lucas.

-Sergorn

Spoiler :   Afficher

Sergorn a écrit :Oui et à l'époque ça gueulait non stop contre TCW à ce sujet.

Sinon ça vaut ce que ça vaut, mais selon SWNNce pitch serait antérieur à sa décision de vendre (possiblement développé quand il faisait TCW) et différent de celui qui a été vendu à Disney en 2012 dont la structure se rapproche plus de la Postlogie actuelle (mais avec beaucoup plus de midichloriens et de Whills )

Ca expliquerait certaines choses ceci dit, surtout au fait que bien peu de choses colle avec le designs du VII fait sous l'égide de Lucas en 2012. Et faut dire que Talon avec Uber, ça n'évoque pas vraiment Maul

Spoiler :   Afficher

-Sergorn

mais ce que je voulais dire... A l'époque (de 2008 à 2012) , chez l'équivalent du story-group, n'avaient-ils pas essayé au moins de trouver à plusieurs reprises des pirouettes tordues, des soft-recon, des petites modifications de timelines pour intégrer le mieux qu'ils pouvaient, du moins "de façade", TCW aux évènements déjà existants de la guerre des clones ?

Sergorn a écrit : Sinon ça vaut ce que ça vaut, mais selon SWNNce pitch serait antérieur à sa décision de vendre (possiblement développé quand il faisait TCW) et différent de celui qui a été vendu à Disney en 2012 dont la structure se rapproche plus de la Postlogie actuelle (mais avec beaucoup plus de midichloriens et de Whills )

Ca expliquerait certaines choses ceci dit, surtout au fait que bien peu de choses colle avec le designs du VII fait sous l'égide de Lucas en 2012. Et faut dire que Talon avec Uber, ça n'évoque pas vraiment Maul

DarkNeo a écrit :On constate quoiqu'il advienne que la Prophétie était remise en cause.

Spoiler :   Afficher

THE CHOSEN ONE

George Lucas: When writing the movies, I tried to make sure that aliens and droids got killed, but not people.

Paul Duncan: A lot of stormtroopers died.

George Lucas: That's right, but you didn't know they were people. We did kill three humans and that was unfortunate. I was always bothered by it.

Paul Duncan: When was that?

George Lucas: On the Death Star, when Han and Luke go into the prison with Chewie to rescue Leia, they shoot three Imperial guys. The guards drew their guns and fired first, but it's still a shame.

Paul Duncan: Really?

George Lucas: Yeah, we very consciously didn't kill very many humans in those movies.

Paul Duncan: What about the stormtroopers? They look robotic, but they're not.

George Lucas: How do you know what they are?

Paul Duncan: Did you have a different idea of what they were?

George Lucas: Yeah, they started out as clones. Once all the clones were killed, the Empire picked up recruits, like militia.

They fought, but they weren't very good at what they did.

Paul Duncan: That's why they kept missing.

George Lucas: That's why they kept missing. Then after the Rebels won, there were no more stormtroopers in my version of the third trilogy.

I had planned for the first trilogy to be about the father, the second trilogy to be about the son, and the third trilogy to be about the daughter and the grandchildren.

Episode VII, VIII, and IX would take ideas from what happened after the Iraq War. "Okay, you fought the war, you killed everybody, now what are you going to do?" Rebuilding afterwards is harder than starting a rebellion or fighting the war. When you win the war and you disband the opposing army, what do they do? The stormtroopers would be like Saddam Hussein's Ba'athist fighters that joined ISIS and kept on fighting. The stormtroopers refuse to give up when the Republic win.

They want to be stormtroopers forever, so they go to a far corner of the galaxy, start their own country and their own rebellion.

There's a power vacuum so gangsters, like the Hutts, are taking advantage of the situation, and there is chaos. The key person is Darth Maul, who had been resurrected in The Clone Wars cartoons—he brings all the gangs together.

Paul Duncan: Was Darth Maul the main villain?

George Lucas: Yeah, but he's very old, and we have two versions of him. One is with a set of cybernetic legs like a spider, and then later on he has metal legs and he was a little bit bigger, more of a superhero. We did all this in the animated series, he was in a bunch of episodes.

Darth Maul trained a girl, Darth Talon, who was in the comic books as his apprentice. She was the new Darth Vader, and most of the action was with her. So these were the two main villains of the trilogy. Maul eventually becomes the godfather of crime in the universe because, as the Empire falls, he takes over.

The movies are about how Leia—I mean, who else is going to be the leader?—is trying to build the Republic. They still have the apparatus of the Republic but they have to get it under control from the gangsters. That was the main story.

It starts out a few years after Return of the Jedi and we establish pretty quickly that there's this underworld, there are these offshoot stormtroopers who started their own planets, and that Luke is trying to restart the Jedi. He puts the word out, so out of 100,000 Jedi, maybe 50 or 100 are left. The Jedi have to grow again from scratch, so Luke has to find two- and three-year-olds, and train them. It'll be 20 years before you have a new generation of Jedi.

By the end of the trilogy Luke would have rebuilt much of the Jedi, and we would have the renewal of the New Republic, with Leia, Senator Organa, becoming the Supreme Chancellor in charge of everything. So she ended up being the Chosen One.

Ltf a écrit :
Une suite était déjà en soi une remise en cause de la Prophétie.

Anakin pourrait avoir tourné le dos à sa destinée d'Élu en refusant son titre sur Mortis, peut-être que l'Élu c'est Skywalker et pas seulement Anakin, peut-être que...

Le problème de la postlogie c'est justement d'avoir ignoré le sujet. À tel point qu'aujourd'hui on se retrouve avec une histoire sans queue ni tête.

DarkNeo a écrit :

Ltf a écrit :
Une suite était déjà en soi une remise en cause de la Prophétie.

Anakin pourrait avoir tourné le dos à sa destinée d'Élu en refusant son titre sur Mortis, peut-être que l'Élu c'est Skywalker et pas seulement Anakin, peut-être que...

Le problème de la postlogie c'est justement d'avoir ignoré le sujet. À tel point qu'aujourd'hui on se retrouve avec une histoire sans queue ni tête.

La prophétie, c'est bien détruire les Sith non ?
Il suffisait de faire une suite sans Sith et c'est tout.

ashlack a écrit : La prophétie c'esr surtout rétablir l'Équilibre dans la Force. Si chaque 10 ans y'a un nouveau grand méchant du côté obscur qui surgit, ça veut plus dire grand-chose (et encore plus si c'est le même qu'avant, qui a survécu on ne sait trop comment).

DarkNeo a écrit :

Ltf a écrit :
Une suite était déjà en soi une remise en cause de la Prophétie.

Anakin pourrait avoir tourné le dos à sa destinée d'Élu en refusant son titre sur Mortis, peut-être que l'Élu c'est Skywalker et pas seulement Anakin, peut-être que...

Le problème de la postlogie c'est justement d'avoir ignoré le sujet. À tel point qu'aujourd'hui on se retrouve avec une histoire sans queue ni tête.

La prophétie, c'est bien détruire les Sith non ?
Il suffisait de faire une suite sans Sith et c'est tout.

darkCedric a écrit : Dark Maul en baron du crime et ancien sith, ce qui permet de réintroduire des adeptes du côté obscur en lien avec l'héritage de Palpatine sans le faire revenir d'entre les morts.

DarkNeo a écrit :

darkCedric a écrit : Dark Maul en baron du crime et ancien sith, ce qui permet de réintroduire des adeptes du côté obscur en lien avec l'héritage de Palpatine sans le faire revenir d'entre les morts.

C'est exactement ce que faisait la Postlogie jusqu'à ce que l'épisode 9 vienne nous ramener Palpatine.

darkCedric a écrit :
Maul n'est pas inconnu dans la saga : on sait d'où il vient. On te relie donc ces nouveaux adeptes de l'obscurité à quelque chose qu'on a déjà vu.

Snoke, jusqu'à l'épisode IX, c'était juste le graaaand méchant. Aucune explication ou d'enjeux sur ses origines. Aucune tentative pour le lier au reste de la saga. Il sortait littéralement de nul part.

darkCedric a écrit :C'est fou comme quelques lignes d'un spitch

Thephx8 a écrit :

C'est comme si on nous exposait un pitch de la prélogie où nous présente bien une République corrompue avec une organisme politique dépassé et agressé par les agglomérats industriels, banquiers, commerciaux avec Palpatine et Dooku/Maul dans l'ombre, un ordre Jedi voué à disparaitre mais ... sans qu'on soit au courant de l'existence des armées droides et clones plus de la sécession de la CSI

Il y a bien longtemps, dans une très lointaine galaxie…

L’Ancienne République était une République de légende, plus grande que l’espace ou le temps. Inutile de dire où elle se situait ni d’où elle venait. Il suffisait de savoir que… c’était la République.
Jadis, sous le sage gouvernement du sénat et la protection des Chevaliers Jedi, la République avait prospéré et grandi. Pourtant, comme il arrive souvent quand la richesse et la puissance dépassent l’admirable et atteignent au terrible, un jour surgissent les méchants qui ont de la rapacité à revendre.
Ainsi en alla-t-il avec la République à son apogée. Comme les plus grands arbres, qui sont capables de repousser les agressions venues du dehors, la République pourrit de l’intérieur bien que le danger fût resté invisible.
Soutenu et encouragé par des personnages actifs et avides de pouvoir au sein même du gouvernement, ainsi que par les grandes organisations commerciales, l’ambitieux Sénateur Palpatine manœuvra pour se faire élire Président de la République. Il promit de procéder à la réunification des peuples dissidents et de restaurer la gloire passée de la République.
Dès qu’il fut installé dans ses fonctions, il se proclama Empereur, se coupant définitivement du peuple. Il devint vite un simple instrument entre les mains de ses propres collaborateurs et des courtisans qu’il avait nommés à de hautes fonctions. Et les appels à la justice des gens du peuple cessèrent d’atteindre ses oreilles.
Ayant exterminé par la trahison et la ruse les Chevaliers Jedi, gardiens de la justice, les gouverneurs et les bureaucrates impériaux se préparèrent à faire régner la terreur parmi les mondes découragés de la galaxie. Beaucoup employèrent les forces impériales et le nom de l’Empereur, toujours plus isolé, pour mener à bien leurs ambitions personnelles.
Or un petit nombre de systèmes se révoltèrent devant ces violations continuelles. Proclamant leur opposition à l’Ordre nouveau, ils se lancèrent dans la grande bataille afin de restaurer l’Ancienne République.
Dès le début, ils se trouvèrent largement inférieurs en nombre aux systèmes maintenus dans l’asservissement par l’Empereur. En ces premiers jours sombres, il semblait inéluctable que le clair flambeau de la résistance s’éteindrait avant que de pouvoir jeter la lumière d’une nouvelle vérité sur une galaxie de peuples opprimés et vaincus…

Journal des Whills,
Première Saga.

Ils se trouvaient au mauvais endroit au mauvais moment. Tout naturellement ils devinrent des héros.

Leia ORGANA d’ALDERAAN, Sénateur.

Ltf a écrit :

Thephx8 a écrit :
C'est comme si on nous exposait un pitch de la prélogie où nous présente bien une République corrompue avec une organisme politique dépassé et agressé par les agglomérats industriels, banquiers, commerciaux avec Palpatine et Dooku/Maul dans l'ombre, un ordre Jedi voué à disparaitre mais ... sans qu'on soit au courant de l'existence des armées droides et clones plus de la sécession de la CSI

Ça existait déjà en tant que prologue du roman Star Wars à l’époque

Spoiler :   Afficher

Lucas ST was always evolving, as it should, obviously over time. But not all versions are adressed in the book, just the relevant one and given its a PT focussed book and the PT and TCW were his last big thing, that is what this book and this books ST version is about and evolved from.


In the 70s,...
Lucas toyed with SW as a pulp space fantasy series like Flash Gordon that despite being a Saga he split into parts would feel way more like an ongoing serial following the main cast (to which not always Han Solo was counted even). The "Sequel" developed for movie but turned book "Splinter of the Mind's Eye" is the best example here. But as he actually developed TESB and thought about its potential continuation in a trilogy, his work got way more cyclical and found its narrative structre (ring theory, Campbell, etc.).

In the 80s,...
After TESB, the question became "Should ROTJ be the end, or is there more after it?" and despite plans for more after it ("There is another", The Emperor as main bad, finding Luke's sister (not Leia), etc.), it was decided to make ROTJ an end. Hence the changes to its original plot, bringing in the Emperor early, making Leia his sister and such changes.
After that, obviously fans wanted more and with comics, rpg and games expanding the universe slowly, the ghost of an ST ever coming was ever present and based in the old abandoned concepts. Will the Emperor return? Will the dark side forever dominate Luke's destiny, given his Force vision in the Tree-Cave-Temple on Dagobah? Is Boba Fett dead?

In the 90s,...
Still continuing the late 80s trends and rumors about a ST coming one day hopefully, the Legends Expanded Universe grew and explored the post ROTJ as a Lit version of Sequels working many concepts and ideas into various sources, sometimes even in several instances and variations. The Emperor returned, Luke fell and got redeemed, the next generation faced the same fears, challenges, falls and redemptions. But the announcement of the PT after the Special Edition turned the focus on the formerly off limits past and Clone Wars. The hope for an ST was not forgotten but no longer the focus.

In the 2000s,...
The PT underway or done and TCW ongoing, it was finally time for an ST. Now or never kinda, and all coming full circle it needed the PT and TCW as much as the OT as foundation. But technology still was not where Lucas wanted it to be and even his Underworld tv show hit delay after delay. And the more TCW advanced, the more concepts he seeded in it for what he really was working on with Underworld and the ST. As Underworld and the ST though were pushed further and further back again, their concepts in part also got reworked into TCW episodes in later seasons maybe. Some at least, that could double as seeding any future potential ST.

In the 2010s,...
Frustration on a high, Lucas creativity would not stop, but a sale to Disney became more and more likely as he still continued to figure out his ST and technology.

The rest is history.

Spoiler :   Afficher

“The prophecy is that Anakin will bring balance to the Force and destroy the Sith. He becomes Darth Vader. Darth Vader does become the hero. Darth Vader does destroy the Sith meaning himself and the Emperor. He does it because he’s redeemed by his son.”

“So the prophecy is true and by doing that he redeems himself and goes from being Darth Vader back to being Anakin again.”

- George Lucas

darthruin a écrit :
Pour en revenir aux idées de Lucas, c'est intéressant de voir la façon dont elles ont évolué, il est maintenant assez clair qu'il n'a jamais eu une vision arrêtée et fixe concernant l'ensemble, voilà pourquoi j'ai toujours dit que ça n'avait pas de sens de parler de LA version de Lucas.

Spoiler :   Afficher

Lucas ST was always evolving, as it should, obviously over time. But not all versions are adressed in the book, just the relevant one and given its a PT focussed book and the PT and TCW were his last big thing, that is what this book and this books ST version is about and evolved from.


In the 70s,...
Lucas toyed with SW as a pulp space fantasy series like Flash Gordon that despite being a Saga he split into parts would feel way more like an ongoing serial following the main cast (to which not always Han Solo was counted even). The "Sequel" developed for movie but turned book "Splinter of the Mind's Eye" is the best example here. But as he actually developed TESB and thought about its potential continuation in a trilogy, his work got way more cyclical and found its narrative structre (ring theory, Campbell, etc.).

In the 80s,...
After TESB, the question became "Should ROTJ be the end, or is there more after it?" and despite plans for more after it ("There is another", The Emperor as main bad, finding Luke's sister (not Leia), etc.), it was decided to make ROTJ an end. Hence the changes to its original plot, bringing in the Emperor early, making Leia his sister and such changes.
After that, obviously fans wanted more and with comics, rpg and games expanding the universe slowly, the ghost of an ST ever coming was ever present and based in the old abandoned concepts. Will the Emperor return? Will the dark side forever dominate Luke's destiny, given his Force vision in the Tree-Cave-Temple on Dagobah? Is Boba Fett dead?

In the 90s,...
Still continuing the late 80s trends and rumors about a ST coming one day hopefully, the Legends Expanded Universe grew and explored the post ROTJ as a Lit version of Sequels working many concepts and ideas into various sources, sometimes even in several instances and variations. The Emperor returned, Luke fell and got redeemed, the next generation faced the same fears, challenges, falls and redemptions. But the announcement of the PT after the Special Edition turned the focus on the formerly off limits past and Clone Wars. The hope for an ST was not forgotten but no longer the focus.

In the 2000s,...
The PT underway or done and TCW ongoing, it was finally time for an ST. Now or never kinda, and all coming full circle it needed the PT and TCW as much as the OT as foundation. But technology still was not where Lucas wanted it to be and even his Underworld tv show hit delay after delay. And the more TCW advanced, the more concepts he seeded in it for what he really was working on with Underworld and the ST. As Underworld and the ST though were pushed further and further back again, their concepts in part also got reworked into TCW episodes in later seasons maybe. Some at least, that could double as seeding any future potential ST.

In the 2010s,...
Frustration on a high, Lucas creativity would not stop, but a sale to Disney became more and more likely as he still continued to figure out his ST and technology.

The rest is history.

Ltf a écrit : Sinon, petite question : c'est bien la première fois que George Lucas met un personnage qu'il n'a pas inventé au centre de l'histoire non ? Je crois que c'est du jamais vu, même pour une planète ou un personnage secondaire

jedi-mich a écrit :Alors voyez vous, je comprends que ça puisse être intéressant de découvrir les idées de Lucas sur sa "postlogie" mais je déplore que ça soit fait dans un bouquin qui est sensé parler de souvenirs de la production de la Prélogie.
Pour moi c'est hors sujet.

A la rigueur Lucas peut dire quelques mots sur Maul qu'il voulait faire revenir mais ça s'arrête là, je m'en fou des idées sur le devenir de Leia et Luke (du moins je m'en fou dans ce livre mais ailleurs oui pourquoi pas ).
Je préfère qu'on reste sur les films de la Prélo, je le répète dans ce genre de livre.

Après je verrai comment cela est amené (je commence à peine la lecture )

vos661 a écrit :

Ltf a écrit : Sinon, petite question : c'est bien la première fois que George Lucas met un personnage qu'il n'a pas inventé au centre de l'histoire non ? Je crois que c'est du jamais vu, même pour une planète ou un personnage secondaire

Si on ne prend en compte que les films, il n'y a que Coruscant, et dans une bien moindre mesure Aayla Secura (et encore plus moindre Quinlan Vos).
Après dans TCW y a beaucoup plus d'exemples du style, ne serait-ce que Ventress par exemple

Ltf a écrit :La vision de Lucas était relativement stable à partir du moment où il s'est lancé dans la production et la réalisation de ses films. La prélogie, il l'avait en tête 20 ans avant de la commencer. C'est surtout pour cette postlogie où il partait sur des bases qu'ils n'avait jamais imaginé avant, ça se sent dans ses dires. Il partait sur un Star Wars réinventé qu'il n'avait pas envisagé auparavant.

A partir du moment où tu crée une postlogie, tu remets en cause la première version de la Prophétie car cette prophétie a surtout été écrite dans le but de donner encore plus d'ampleur au sacrifice de Vador : au-delà de l'amour pour son fils, c'était écrit.
Pendant un temps après avoir vu les 6 films, la fin était vraiment un happy end à prendre dans le sens "et ils vécurent heureux et eurent beaucoup d'enfants". Forcément une suite avec des conflits remets cette vision en cause.

darthruin a écrit : ce que je veux avant tout souligner c'est que Lucas n'a jamais rien gravé dans le marbre, même si parfois il s'est montré très catégorique dans les années 2000 sur le fait qu'il n'y aurait jamais de suite après ROTJ.

vos661 a écrit :Bah c'est totalement différent oui. Darth Maul, Darth Talon, des Jedi survivants de l'Ordre 66,... Rien à voir avec Luke encore et toujours le dernier Jedi 30 ans après, l'Empire 2.0, la Rébellion 2.0,...
On dirait un scénario fait spécifiquement pour me faire plaisir Quel enfer d'avoir à se taper des incompétents pareils chez Lucasfilm alors que y avait matière de faire quelque chose de bien à partir des idées de Lucas C'est vraiment les pires...

Jedi Croate a écrit :Je vois pas ce qu'il pouvait faire de plus que se montrer "très catégorique" dans les années 2000...

Spoiler :   Afficher

Lucas en 1997:
"Insider : L'histoire contient-elle six ou neuf épisodes ?
Lucas : Six épisodes. Les trois autres existeront seulement si j'ai envie de faire des suites."

Lucas en 2005:
"Jamais ! Absolument jamais !", répondait-il à Empire. "C'est tout ce qui a été écrit. C'était l'histoire de Dark Vador. Ca commence quand il a dix ans et ça finit quand il meurt."

Lucas en 2008:
"J'ai laissé des instructions explicites pour qu'il n'y ait plus de films. Il n'y aura absolument jamais d'Episodes VII à IX.

Jedi Croate a écrit :Il n'a jamais rien gravé dans le marbre...c'est à dire ? Il aurait fallu quoi pour que ce soit le cas ?

Spoiler :   Afficher

"The prophecy was right. Anakin was the Chosen One, and he does bring balance to the Force. He takes the ounce of good still left in him and destroys the Emperor out of compassion for his son."

"By the end of the trilogy, Luke would’ve rebuilt much of the Jedi, and we would have the renewal of the New Republic, with Leia, Senator Organa, becoming the Supreme Chancellor in charge of everything. So she ended up being the Chosen One."